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Back || Next || Recent || Bohnertime || Close The following was in reference to email I got about an article This is the email from cowboy bebop Read your diary... “you're wrong.. being moral is not like being hungry... hunger is a * * *
bohnertime: hi Bee7D: i got your email bohnertime: ah bohnertime: I can talk for a bit, if you want to discuss Bee7D: as regarding being moral... isn't a need.. it's a tendency.. bohnertime: or you can respond via email Bee7D: i'm good here bohnertime: oh Bee7D: u could make the case for it being a need in the long run bohnertime: well, even if it is a tendency, you still have work to do before you can say we can't be moral without god Bee7D: for instance.. like.. "housing".. it's not an immediate need.. u can sleep under a bush.. but eventually it will inconvenience and possibly kill you (weather, etc.) bohnertime: in terms of the analogy to hunger, I only ment to illustrate that I don't think about behaving in a moral fashion, I just do. Similarly, I don't think about being hungry, I just am Bee7D: well how do you propose to be moral w/o any indicator of morality? bohnertime: Ah, this is a long discussion Bee7D: you aren't just hungry... hunger is a need.. you try to fulfill that need.. just like any other need.. it's not a "just because".. you never do anything just because..there's always an underlying purpose to anything you do bohnertime: I think that given the way people are, there is a right and wrong way to act Bee7D: based on what? Bee7D: there can be no right or wrong way w/o objective measure bohnertime: for example, I wouldn't like my civil liberties removed, I probably shouldn't do it to them Bee7D: thinking "logically" would actually work against you bohnertime: how so? Bee7D: if there were no moral basis for doing anything, it would be logical to take advantage of people whenever possible bohnertime: how do you figure Bee7D: this is not a moral basis..this is a logical basis bohnertime: ? Bee7D: well if there is no morality, there is no need for me to consider you Bee7D: i should logically just consider my needs alone bohnertime: I didn't say there is no morality Bee7D: well what is your basis for morality? Bee7D: there has to be a basis in order for people to behave or even consider being moral bohnertime: Again, moral behavior can be derived from a though process that takes into account the nature of humans and which actions support a good life bohnertime: cohesive society Bee7D: what's a "good" life? Bee7D: no it isn't bohnertime: ? Bee7D: you're talking about moral conventions Bee7D: not logic bohnertime: I don't know if that is Bee7D: having a "cohesive society" is a moral convention Bee7D: not a logical one bohnertime: saftey Bee7D: you don't know if a lot of things are true because you haven't thought them through bohnertime: it's part of human nature Bee7D: what would be the point of being "safe" or "secure"? bohnertime: to protect our lives Bee7D: no it isn't bohnertime: self preserverence Bee7D: longevity is derived from morality bohnertime: yes, it is human nature to want to stay alive bohnertime: no, the other way around Bee7D: your goal is not to stay alive bohnertime: ? Bee7D: that is a ridiculous conclusion bohnertime: it's not my conclusion Bee7D: if your goal was to stay alive, u would eat and drink and stay home bohnertime: but there are some goals in life, one of which is to stay alive bohnertime: right, well it's not the ONLY goal Bee7D: that's your conclusion based upon your goal you just stated bohnertime: nope Bee7D: staying alive isn't a goal bohnertime: but whatever, it's not important Bee7D: not an end bohnertime: I don't think I'm ignorning it Bee7D: and expect to understand the underlying principle bohnertime: I'm disagreeing with you Bee7D: you are ignoring it.. u haven't addressed it bohnertime: I did above Bee7D: you've "whatevered" it bohnertime: no Bee7D: no u didn't bohnertime: shall I cut and paste? Bee7D: we have nowhere near finished bohnertime: I agree Bee7D: i've read it .. i don't know why you'd like me to reread your incomplete argument bohnertime: dude, you need to chill out Bee7D: dude?... bohnertime: this is just a friendly debate Bee7D: are you in 4th grade? bohnertime: ? Bee7D: with handling any adult discussion bohnertime: well, I'm having a rough time convincing you we simply disagree Bee7D: dude chill?.. i feel like you tried to hijack me into a "dude where's my car" video bohnertime: ok Bee7D: we do disagree.. why would u need to waste your time convincing me of that?... Bee7D: the problem is you're not thoughtful in your disagreement bohnertime: why are you being so hostile bohnertime: ? Bee7D: well the truth is often very hostile to people in denail Bee7D: girls often consider the truth to be "hostile" to their thoughtless contentions bohnertime: And I am thoughtful. I believe humans act in a certain way given the way humans are. Bee7D: that's why the term "denial" was invented in the 1st place bohnertime: Not because God told us to be that way Bee7D: you are not thoughtful, that's obvious by how you handle disagreement..u simple relegate it to disagreement without caring to understand why bohnertime: well, for starters, you haven't given me much of a chance Bee7D: forget about god, you haven't even given a credible view of morality apart from God bohnertime: if you want to read articles I have written on this, go ahead Bee7D: i've given you plenty of chance right now bohnertime: not really Bee7D: dont' act like a professional victim bohnertime: 5 minutes Bee7D: you have every opportunity to explain yourself bohnertime: so have you... Bee7D: it's you that has wasted your 5 mins. on "we simply disagree" bohnertime: well, go for it Bee7D: i 'm much brighter than you.. i take opportunity where i see it bohnertime: ok, well Bee7D: you haven't bohnertime: lets hear you case Bee7D: i just did.. i told you that there is no moral basis for doing things that benefit society apart from God bohnertime: that's not a case Bee7D: you haven't been able to answer it Bee7D: sure it is.. bohnertime: ? bohnertime: well, maybe I just don't understand your explination Bee7D: i've presented a case.. you've presented incoherent and incomplete arguments ... and you consider it "simple disagreement" bohnertime: you said yourself your smarter than me, maybe I just didn't understand it Bee7D: well if you don't understand it, why would you simply shrug it off? bohnertime: thanks. Bee7D: w/o God , u cannot have a moral society.. and there is no basis for acting moral Bee7D: logically, all actions should benefit you Bee7D: not society bohnertime: I disagree with this :logically, all actions should Bee7D: to consider society in the Bee7D: society is derived from a moral interest bohnertime: I disagree with this too: to consider society in the equation of morality wouldn't be logical because society isn't looking out for your interest Bee7D: well ok, strictly speaking, all actions SHOULD benefit you..even the actions that directly benefit other people bohnertime: ok Bee7D: that is not moral bohnertime: ? Bee7D: if i help you out just because it will help me in the future, that isn't a moral decision bohnertime: how so? Bee7D: that's a selfish decision bohnertime: how so? it's not motivated by pure self interest Bee7D: because the benefit is directed at myself bohnertime: the self interest is incidental Bee7D: sure it is. bohnertime: also, you havent' escaped that problem when you talk about God Bee7D: that's not true at all bohnertime: if you don't kill to get into heaven, isn't that selfish also? Bee7D: sure i have... if morality is involved, then the self is automatically accountable Bee7D: god's goal isn't to take you to heaven first of all... bohnertime: no, it's your goal Bee7D: that's why you have a conscience Bee7D: it's not my goal bohnertime: because God said so, presumably Bee7D: but it's not my goal or god's goal bohnertime: why do it? Bee7D: why do what bohnertime: why would one not kill if not because of God's command bohnertime: on your view, morality comes from God Bee7D: because it would bother your conscience.. your moral indicator bohnertime: so it has nothing to do with God Bee7D: where did you get that from? bohnertime: well, I'm trying to figure it out bohnertime: I agree Bee7D: well there you go.. to "not bohnertime: ? Bee7D: if there were no God, u wouldn't have a conscience bohnertime: oh bohnertime: ? Bee7D: because it's a moral faculty Bee7D: so you should kill other people in that case Bee7D: but you don't because you have a conscience Bee7D: you could kill for fun or necessity.. the basis would be negligible w/o a conscience bohnertime: Right, I think that it may be true that in some cases, behaving in a moral fashion would benefit you Bee7D: it's not a moral fashion if it's temporary Bee7D: morality isn't temporal bohnertime: but I think you are extrapolating from what I am saying Bee7D: it's simply convenience bohnertime: Ok bohnertime: There may be times when murder is justified, right? Bee7D: there's no such thing as murder w/o morality.there is simply killing bohnertime: morality and legality are very different Bee7D: well again, the benefit would be an arbitrary decision w/o morality bohnertime: ? Bee7D: if there were no moral basis for anything, there would never be any legal basis bohnertime: what state Bee7D: washington bohnertime: Oh. curious Bee7D: ok Bee7D: yeah bohnertime: certainly it wasn't moral Bee7D: as a moral issue bohnertime: no, as a business issue Bee7D: of course it wasn't moral bohnertime: what abuot laws about signing contracts Bee7D: it's just that our moral basis isn't always accurate bohnertime: conducting business Bee7D: it's a moral issue Bee7D: u don't make laws w/o any moral basis bohnertime: Ok Bee7D: it's all related to morality..but ok bohnertime: right Bee7D: you can't have a conscience w/o God bohnertime: Ok, now you are just begging the question Bee7D: a conscience would be pointless w/o God bohnertime: ha Bee7D: what phrase? bohnertime: it means that you have built into your conclusion your premise Bee7D: i doubt you even understand what you're trying to imply in that sentiment regarding my statement bohnertime: What you have said is there can be no moral conscience without God. But what I am trying to say is that there might be. In fact, it is probable that back in the day when humans were evolving, cooperation, a specific type of cooperation was necessary for living a decent cohesive life. A life with minimal pain. A life where one wasn't in a constant state of war with their neighbors Bee7D: no because a conscience is a MORAL faculty.. how would something moral benefit anyone?.. morality is concerned w/a future Bee7D: evolution is not concerned w/the future Bee7D: it is concerned w/the present bohnertime: it benefits us both Bee7D: those things don't perpetuate survival..they perpetuate a moral society... Bee7D: and we aren't here to survive.. we are here to benefit ourselves if there is no moral basis for anything bohnertime: It is a strong part of human nature to survive Bee7D: as i said before, you're wrong if you think you'll be fine just eating and drinking and staying in a room until you die Bee7D: it does not benefit you to be honest apart from any morality bohnertime: Ok, well survival isn't then ONLY goal bohnertime: so is pleasure Bee7D: you are wrong and not thinking it thru bohnertime: a sense of accomplishment Bee7D: survival is NOT an end bohnertime: I'm not sayintg it is an end Bee7D: yes u are bohnertime: rather, not the end Bee7D: you are imply that it is a reason Bee7D: it is not anywhere near an end bohnertime: It is a reason Bee7D: i've already proved that you don't live to survive bohnertime: proved? Bee7D: yes bohnertime: youve presented a case Bee7D: yeah and u haven't said bohnertime: right Bee7D: all your life bohnertime: but I responded to that too Bee7D: no u didn't bohnertime: that that wouldn't brign you pleasure Bee7D: u didn't respond to that bohnertime: there are other parts of live Bee7D: yeah but you said survival was the end Bee7D: it is obviously not an end Bee7D: it doesn't bring u pleasure to survive bohnertime: then what IS an end Bee7D: you're this dumb that you don't understand survival isn't an end? Bee7D: you seriously think u wake up to stay alive? Bee7D: are u taht stupid? bohnertime: I repead my request Bee7D: u stay alive as a MEANS to accomplishing something bohnertime: WHAT IS AN END Bee7D: but you're trying to claim it is bohnertime: well, tell me Bee7D: you need to see that fundamentally, survival in itself is useless bohnertime: I mean, if you are so smart, tell me Bee7D: you want to be satisfied bohnertime: if you are so smart, why do you keep on telling me how smart you are Bee7D: because you keep throwing it in my face bohnertime: shouldnt it just be obvious to me Bee7D: so i simply throw it back bohnertime: ? Bee7D: it should be, but you're not that smart bohnertime: why? Bee7D: because they are a danger to themselves otherwise bohnertime: ? Bee7D: imagine a dumb person trying to run the country bohnertime: Well that woudl be a danger to you, not me Bee7D: you only have the capacity to think and see short term outcomes bohnertime: Ah, are you sure the Bee7D: but cannot see the long term health problems from constantly eating chocolate bohnertime: on what the point of surviving is Bee7D: no it's simply that you're too dumb to understand and like most dumb people u chalk it up to current social conventions like "we simply disgree" bohnertime: I am not a relativist Bee7D: sure u are bohnertime: no, you should read my articles Bee7D: you agree w/the concept of simple disagreement bohnertime: I'm not agreeing to disagree Bee7D: they are not very thoughtful bohnertime: ? Bee7D: you are contradicting yourself now Bee7D: make up your mind Bee7D: you disagree.. gee that was difficult to notice.. so you pointed that out 2 times because? bohnertime: but I think you are taken as given something I think is wrong Bee7D: i know i am right..and i know you are wrong ..for the reasons i stated bohnertime: they weren't great reasons Bee7D: sure they were, you're just not capable of understanding them bohnertime: or maybe they just werent' that great Bee7D: you're too dumb to understand the responses i've given bohnertime: not really bohnertime: maybe, but for such a smarty pants, you did a shit job teaching me Bee7D: you have to have a student w/half a brain in order to teach them anything bohnertime: wow Bee7D: teaching anyone anything depends on their cooperation bohnertime: I tried Bee7D: yes..it is a novel concept bohnertime: you wrote me off as being dumb Bee7D: you didn't try bohnertime: ! Bee7D: i didn't write u off as dumb bohnertime: ha Bee7D: you behave like a dumb person.. u use tired arguments that are easily refuted and you refuse to acknowledge it bohnertime: look, if every time I disagree with you, you are going to get on my case, then yes, I bet you think I am dumb Bee7D: hence u are dumb by loose definition bohnertime: I would say more stubborn than dumb Bee7D: they are unable to comprehend the issue bohnertime: and I don't think this is meerly a matter of disagreement Bee7D: u simply mark it up as "disagreement" to save face bohnertime: I wasn't done Bee7D: it's obvious we disagree.. only a dumb person would harp on that bohnertime: if you think I am so dumb, why are you still here Bee7D: the point is not that we disagree, it's WHY we disagree bohnertime: dumb is contageous you know Bee7D: well because i respond to dumb people..but i definitely do not have to initiate conversation with them once i realize they are dumb bohnertime: duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Bee7D: fortunately for me, it's not contagious bohnertime: me gonna talkie lieke Bee7D: your mental incapacity won't affect me, i'm safe :D BUDDY BLOCKED (note, she signed on as a different user to tell me off some more)
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